New lore from the Dragonborn DLC.

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New lore from the Dragonborn DLC.

Post  RightHandofSithis on Wed Dec 12, 2012 3:25 pm

As we know, I'm making hit mod to fit firmly with the established lore from bethesda. As such, with the new Dragonborn DLC, some lore issues surrounding the Morag Tong have come up.

It would seem that contrary to what we previously believed, the Morag Tong has already resurrected in Morrowind and Solstheim. This is evident by a quest from the DLC to stop an Assassination plot by the Morag Tong (Here: http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Dragonborn:Served_Cold) And apparantly, the player can be randomly targeted by the Tong if they are a member of the brotherhood (this may just be hearsay though).

While I think we should wait until the DLC has been thoroughly documented on the UESP before committing ourselves, i think we should change the backstory of the Morag Tong to relect this new lore.

I'm thinking that instead of the Tong being forced to rebuild itself in Skyrim, they instead learn of the weakness of the Dark Brotherhood, and choose to open a chapter in Skyrim so as to confront them once and for all.

However, because we don't know how many 'Masters' the Tong would have, we have to choose weather we keep all the current Masters, or if we should have one master, with a number of Knowers running the sanctuaries.

We know that from Morrowind, the Tong only had three Masters, one for each branch (and the Grandmaster in charge of Vivec's branch).
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Morag Tong Ambush

Post  NightStalker13 on Wed Dec 12, 2012 5:49 pm

The Mt ambush might be just here say like you said because I've had this dlc for a week about and it hasn't happened. Funny Babette scene thoygh
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Re: New lore from the Dragonborn DLC.

Post  RightHandofSithis on Wed Dec 12, 2012 6:11 pm

polarchill12 wrote:The Mt ambush might be just here say like you said because I've had this dlc for a week about and it hasn't happened. Funny Babette scene thoygh

No, it seems like the random attack is an action. The UESP documents it, and I've hard it from more than one person now.

If it happens to you, please let me know.

Also, if during your experiences in the DLC, let me know about any new info about them please. Apparently there is at least one quest that includes them.
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Post  NightStalker13 on Thu Dec 13, 2012 2:58 pm

Nothing besides the quest and the fact that both the wife and daughter of the severin family were likely mt agents because I didn't kill them and they appeared at the mt hideout in mt armor.
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Morag Tong Sited

Post  NightStalker13 on Fri Dec 14, 2012 8:11 pm

As RHoS has said the Morag Tong will appear with a rit to kill you but this only happens on Solethesiem (I can't spell that place!). Besides that there isn't much about the Morag Tong in the expansion.
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Extra Extra

Post  NightStalker13 on Sat Dec 15, 2012 4:53 am

I'm not aure if the mt is legal or popular in morrowind anymore because upon finishing the quest involved with them the man I had to report to said he "couldn't believe vendil would hire those fetchers (mt)". I don't know if this is important but I'm hoping for the best.
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Re: New lore from the Dragonborn DLC.

Post  RightHandofSithis on Sat Dec 15, 2012 1:58 pm

Well, for a start, i think its just you and me here. Just thought it would be best if this particular discussion was public, so if someone new comes along, they can see and contribute to it.

Now, I'd imagine the MT are still legal in Morrowind, as the writ (from the UESP) still says legal execution. However, we can simply not mention much about their status in Morrowind. Of course, we need to decide if the sanctuaries in Skyrim are controlled by 'masters' or if there is only one master spearheading the operation against the Brotherhood, with several Knowers leading the sanctuaries.

The issue there is mostly Lore, not a practical issue. In Morrowind, it was suggested that each MT sect was lead by a master, but I'm worried about How many masters the MT would have. In Morrowind, they only had 3, and the grandmaster. So I suppose there's no problem with having the sanctuaries ruled by 'masters'.

Another slight thing I'm concerned with is the rank of Grandmaster. It would be assumed that the Grandmaster would be tied up in Morrowind, and thus unable to come to Skyrim. Thus replacing the Grandmaster in this mod with the Exalted Master would be perfect (as the Exalted Master is high enough to run this operation, but may also be able to travel outside of Morrowind). However, this would mean that the Player can only reach the rank of Exalted Master (the second highest rank, and successor to the Grandmaster). Will players feel that have been left short by this?


PS: Polar, if you have a MT writ on your character, or get one at any stage, could you please take a screenshot of it for me, just to see what it looks like? The button to do that is 'Prt Scr/Sys Rq' Just next to 'Scroll lock' on the top row of the keyboard.
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Morag Tong Maters

Post  NightStalker13 on Sat Dec 15, 2012 9:08 pm

In the master area I think perhaps business is slow in Morrowind or some houses (Like the Redoran of Raven Rock) have gone out of their way to spite the morag tong. It would make sense seeing the redoran's reactions to the tong involvement. The Grand Master might not trust the fact that an Exalted master can get things done so went to see expansion into new territory (slowly reclaiming the tong's ,eventually, legal footprint). Just suggestions.
PS: I can get that mt writ for you as soon as they decide to attack my wandering butt across the island. PSS: I like Silt-Striders. Laughing
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Re: New lore from the Dragonborn DLC.

Post  RightHandofSithis on Sat Dec 15, 2012 10:28 pm

polarchill12 wrote:In the master area I think perhaps business is slow in Morrowind or some houses (Like the Redoran of Raven Rock) have gone out of their way to spite the morag tong. It would make sense seeing the redoran's reactions to the tong involvement. The Grand Master might not trust the fact that an Exalted master can get things done so went to see expansion into new territory (slowly reclaiming the tong's ,eventually, legal footprint). Just suggestions.
PS: I can get that mt writ for you as soon as they decide to attack my wandering butt across the island. PSS: I like Silt-Striders. Laughing

The Morag Tong don't like business, they put their honor before gold, so coming to Skyrim to expand business opportunities doesn't work.

I'm not sure if the unfriendly response from the captain would be because the Dunmer hate the Morag Tong, perhaps it may have just been because they targeted his superior. I'm not doubting what you are saying, but I'm just trying to make this as comprehensive as possible.

In fact, I'd imagine the Tong has begun to enjoy new found support following the Reclamations, which saw Mephala, the Daedric Prince the Tong worships, restored as part of the official Dunmer religion.

PS: Cheers, just wanted to see if the writs actually had the Morag Tong Seal, or if we have to remake that.

PSS: They bough back Silt Striders? I remember them from morrowind. Are they still used for transport?

EDIT: Its not that the Tong wouldn't do business in Skyrim, its that they put honor before gold. They demand gold for their services (a lot of gold, they are pricy), but they are much more devoted to their honor and religion.

In fact, in Morrowind, they never targeted anyone who was harmless (Peasants etc). They only targeted nobles, outlaws, agents etc.
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Re: New lore from the Dragonborn DLC.

Post  RightHandofSithis on Sat Mar 02, 2013 5:00 pm

So its been a while, and I've recently bought,m installed and played Dragonborn, and these are my thoughts on the current status of the Morag Tong so far:

-In 'The Ulen Matter' (http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Dragonborn:The_Ulen_Matter), Vendil uses the term 'our forces'. Perhaps he has joined the Morag Tong? Perhaps the remnants of House Hlaalu have joined the MT (like Indoril with the Temple)? I'd say its best not to mention this idea at all in the mod.

-As Polar said before, Veloth comments that Vandil stooped so low as to hire those 'fetchers' (the Morag Tong). I do not think that means the MT have been outlawed, in fact, Mephala, whom the Tong is devoted to, is one of the reclamations and opened worshiped by the dunmer. According to the writ issued against the player (if they are a Db member), the Morag Tong still considers itself lawful, and apparently still has official sanction (however, if the Tong was outlawed they may still consider themselves legal and traditional, explaining the wording of the writ).

-Perhaps an explanation for Veloth's statements lies within the inherent hatred of assassins by warriors. Even in Skyrim, the Companions hate the concept of stealth, and in House Redoran itself, one of their accusations against the Hlaalu is that they are liars and untrustworthy (http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:The_True_Noble%27s_Code).

-Discussion on all of this is welcome, and even preferred to me simply laying down my own opinion without discussing it with everyone else.

I've also thought about how to organise the Morag Tong:

-It was never stated how many masters there were in the Tong, although in Morrowind, they had one branch, led by a master, in each Dunmer Capital on Vvardenfell (in total, 3 masters and 1 grandmaster). Already this mod has exceeded this, so I feel that one master per sanctuary will work.

-To justify the comments made by Ravyn, I currently have 2 ideas:

1. The Morag Tong has only recently reorganised in Morrowind, excluding him (for reasons previously established). When they learnt of the weakness of the Dark Brotherhood, the Grandmaster himself had taken it upon himself to lead an effort to wipe them from Tamriel. With their mission fulfilled, they opt to remain in Skyrim for the forseeable future in order to dissuade any reorganisation of the Brotherhood, and to try and extend the will of Mephala abroad.

2. The morag tong is only now beginning to reorganise. While a few pockets of Tong members have opted to reorganise themselves (such as the Ashfallow group, who had opted to regroup on Solstheim an ally with Vendil), this is the first coordinated attempt to restore the Morag Tong to its full glory by its leadership. They had chosen Skyrim because they knew the Brotherhood was weak, and they have opted to try and destroy them in the process of rebuilding, and for the dual reason of extending Mephala's reach into Skyrim (primarily) while also securing some additional income in its attempts to rebuild itself (secondary).

Discussion is desired.
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Re: New lore from the Dragonborn DLC.

Post  EPK22 on Fri May 03, 2013 9:56 am

I've found my way back to the fold... for now...

However, this would mean that the Player can only reach the rank of Exalted Master (the second highest rank, and successor to the Grandmaster). Will players feel that have been left short by this

On this concern, I think it is fine. I'm actually always put off by the fact that the Player Character so easily goes from nobody to grand poh pa of factions. It doesn't make sense, I even downloaded a mod that gave me the option to have Toldir take over as arch-mage of the College of Winterhold at the end of the questline (though the mod does nothing to make people stop calling me arch-mage, so it sort of failed in that regard). Being the highest ranked Morag Tong member in Skyrim is still quite an accomplishment in my opinion. Just stress that bit of info, and the player should be fine.

2. The morag tong is only now beginning to reorganise. While a few pockets of Tong members have opted to reorganise themselves (such as the Ashfallow group, who had opted to regroup on Solstheim an ally with Vendil), this is the first coordinated attempt to restore the Morag Tong to its full glory by its leadership. They had chosen Skyrim because they knew the Brotherhood was weak, and they have opted to try and destroy them in the process of rebuilding, and for the dual reason of extending Mephala's reach into Skyrim (primarily) while also securing some additional income in its attempts to rebuild itself (secondary).

If you are asking which we prefer, I would go with #2's reasoning. In fact, Ravyn's words are a good inspiration "...the Tong fled... spread to the nine winds...". I see that as memebers striking out on their own. But once a Morag Tong, always a Morag Tong and soon pockets of assassins started to band together and accept writs. Seeing the Tong again arising, it was only a matter of time before former senior members get word of these and start to make attempt to consolidate power once more.

I could see Skyrim's Morag Tong as having been one of these pockets actually...

Spitballing here, but if Gilyan Sedas is to be retitled "exalted master", perhaps he is appointed early on in the actual questline to said rank by the Grandmaster himself. Before said promotion, Bradasou Hlaalu and any others may have simply followed Gilyan (a former master of Morrowind) because he was by all accounts the most senior MT elder.

And who can deliver the Grandmasters order? Llaala Gidran - she can deliver the letter from the Grandmaster acknowledging Gilyan's efforts in Skyrim and officially promoting Gilyan to Exalted master (perhaps Gilyan had actually sent her out to address the grandmaster and she only now returns). Her second order is to stay in Skyrim under Gilyan and assist in his efforts (or keep a watchful eye for the Grandmaster). Of course both Bradasou and Llaala know that Gilyan's promotion is mostly honorific (considering his age) and even consider he may not be fit to lead, fighting their own battle to be named the next Exalted Master (hence the rivalry the two share).

Llaala could be at the HQ when the player returns from "Arising from the Ruins" quest. The player could actually "interrupt" this meeting (over hearing the bit about Gilyan's official recognition from the Grandmaster) and than the the player recounts fighting off the group of DB assassins which astonishes Gordish and at first raises suspicion in Bradasou. From there they move back to the discussion at hand - consolidation or hitting the DB - Gilyan deferring to the player, stating the player has the most experience with the DB, having once been their Listener.


Last edited by EPK22 on Fri May 03, 2013 1:24 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Re: New lore from the Dragonborn DLC.

Post  EPK22 on Fri May 03, 2013 1:19 pm

Though I suppose those events could have occurred prior to the player joining also. I think my main point was to give a nod to the whole larger MT organization outside of Skyrim and give credence to your "pockets" idea. Those details could just as easily be given through side dialogue with MT members instead.

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Re: New lore from the Dragonborn DLC.

Post  RightHandofSithis on Fri May 03, 2013 1:50 pm

Great to see you back EPK.

So, in that suggestion, is Skyrim itself a 'pocket', or did the MT rise in Morrowind just recently, and endorse an expedition into Skyrim?

If it was a 'pocket', the Grandmaster would probably have supported the idea from that retirement island, and Llaala appears in the game only during that meeting.

Similarly, I think this mod needs a way of dealing with 'Serveed Cold' In Dragonborn. Perhaps the player actually helps assassinate the Councilor, or orders (receives and order) to abandon the contract. Either way, the Ashfallow group become an outlet for the Morag Tong, with the player welcome (and perhaps a few side quests).

Similarly, for the DB, after 'Served Cold', the Brotherhood may establish a small sanctuary on Solstheim, with the same benefits.
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Re: New lore from the Dragonborn DLC.

Post  EPK22 on Fri May 03, 2013 2:42 pm

Unfortunately I have yet to play Dragonborn DLC just yet (just got back in to Skyrim with Dawnguard). I'll have to look into that quest

I like the pocket idea, like they are finally sprouting up where the wind blew them and sending out feelers back to the Grandmaster. But I see it as a little of both, the pocket popped up and in turn reached put and was given endorsement. Like I said though, might not be needed in the questline, more of just background the masters might elude to in certain dialogue options.

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Re: New lore from the Dragonborn DLC.

Post  RightHandofSithis on Sat May 04, 2013 1:54 am

EPK22 wrote:Unfortunately I have yet to play Dragonborn DLC just yet (just got back in to Skyrim with Dawnguard). I'll have to look into that quest

I like the pocket idea, like they are finally sprouting up where the wind blew them and sending out feelers back to the Grandmaster. But I see it as a little of both, the pocket popped up and in turn reached put and was given endorsement. Like I said though, might not be needed in the questline, more of just background the masters might elude to in certain dialogue options.

Served Cold is basically attempting to stop the MT assassinating the leader of Raven Rock (as Solstheim is now part of morrowind). In the Vanilla game, you have to kill them all, but it could be we could play with it in this mod.

Also, your idea of pockets sound perfect. They slowly began sprouting up in Morrowind in a few places, and eventually in Skyrim, each eventually reaching the ears of the Grandmaster, gaining endorsement.
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Re: New lore from the Dragonborn DLC.

Post  EPK22 on Sat May 04, 2013 7:08 am

Well, you said pockets and I just ran with it. Sort of both our ideas.

If there was a way to interact with that quest, and the player has joined the MT and wearing MT gear, perhaps they aren't hostile and he has an option to speak with then and call of the writ (maybe stating its unofficial or lie an say he'll take care of it himself). In turn you would complete that quest, maybe with the option to lie to the quest giver that you still killed them.

Scripting wise I guess it's as easy as having the player and them having the same faction tags.

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Grandmaster

Post  NightStalker13 on Sun May 12, 2013 4:44 pm

As a suggestion for the grandmaster, what if as the situation heard up with the brotherhood (on either side) the Grandmaster comes to Skyrim to make sure the threat is dealt with.
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Re: New lore from the Dragonborn DLC.

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